East Indies

[b]South East Asia.[/b] Been going thru the learning process of creating a game map following the guidlines and learning how to use paint programs, techniques, and the process of constructive criticism in the [url=http://www.dominating12.com/forum/?cmd=topic&id=1803]map dabble[/url] thread I created to go thru the same process that a real map submission would go through. (Feel free to use this thread for your own practice). I've decided I want to have a go at following through with my learning real location map South East Asia, and submit it however long it may take.. I'll just chip away at it, with no expectations of anytime soon. So here is the latest image of it's progress. Aero & Psymon have been giving me plenty of critiques already where I've tried to address them all. some things i'm struggling with are those dang borders... critique away.. [spoiler=S.E.Asia][img]http://dicepatch.com/d12seasia.png[/img][/spoiler]

52 territories it's a map size that I really like. I also like the area you decided to represent. Game play must be good! (Y) What I don't like: - the cannon colours; - the shorten title; - Timor-Leste special bonus; - 2 Indonesian islands on the East turned neutral; - Not sure about the Vietnam-Pontianak connection. What about a Southern Maluku regions including East Timor and the 2 grey islands? In fact those islands belong to the Maluku province according to wikipedia and East Timor even if independent is in practice part of the area: [spoiler]source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia[img]http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q700/Photo_Bishop/Indonesia_zps944bf484.png[/img][/spoiler] Rather than Vietnam-Pontianak of was thinking Vietnam-Kuantan but I don't know. Also Timor-Leste is with the dash I suppose.

It was me who suggested turning the islands neutral as they were very confusing when green, they suggested other connections. You need to see the last update in Map Dabble to understand why they were confusing. I see there have been some region colour changes, but there is at least one bad choice, especially the green Maluku islands due to confusion with Java. It would be far better to choose a better contrasting colour for all the regions near it, even if it means changing other region colours as well. Whatever colour you decide on for the Maluku islands, I believe The_Bishop is right, those grey islands should be part of them and so the same colour. Is there a name mismatch with N.Malakau? Is this meant to be N.Maluku? Not to give too many concerns in one go, I will just mention the outer glow seems to have gone from the land, but I think it would look better with a dark outer glow and some noise added. I also don't think the font colours are working with the map colours. I know they are the colours of the regions, but they either need a translucent box behind or they need a back spray to separate them from the background colour, as they are harsh on the eyes.

I think that the font used does not fit the map style. And I also think that it would look better in white with a black shading because some of them are a little weird now (Kuala Lumpur, Manokwari, Makassar, Kendari and many other small territories) and this way the labels would be put on the territories. But I mean all of them in this style, not only the ones affected. I don't like at all those neutral colored islands. Maybe make them the color of the closest region or delete them. I agree with Bishop on the Timor Leste region. I think it may work. Also that would mean 54 terriories, even for 6 and 9. Making some math, for 54 territories, absolute sum of neutrals (3+4+5+6+7+8+9) is 15, for 55 is 17, and for 56 it's 9... for 52 territories is 23! It is a pretty bad number in this sense, and 56 would be optimal in this range. I hope you understood my calculations... The additions could be the region that Bishop suggested (Tanimbar is the western island, and Aru the eastern one), Sula, the long island above Buru, and [url=http://aspn.com.au/wp-content/uploads/maps/northernTerritory.png]this division[/url] in Australia. The new territory on the top east part should be named Arnhem. At least I found it many more times than Kakadu-Arnhem or similar.

I think it looks pretty good! Psymon's right about the green islands though, a bit confusing. That's a lot of connection lines. Which is even more confusing. ESPECIALLY with the grid pattern on the background. I'd change the background to something without those lines. I don't mind the Timor-Leste gimmick. I think it'll make gameplay more aggressive. Although there does seem to be an imbalance of strength between the Java and Australian territories that will be fighting over it. So, good and bad to that idea. I feel like Singapore should be independent! Maybe make it like that one map. If you hold Brunei, Singapore, and Timor Leste, you get a +1 bonus lol. Otherwise they just contribute to their regions like normal. I don't really like that idea, but... eh. You make Pontiak too important. Switch to Kuantan like Bishop suggests, or to Sabah. Take out the connection line between Makassar and Banjarmassin for the same reason. Just feel like there's too many connections in some places. You have to I know, because otherwise too linear. But blue and orange regions can be attacked from 4 and 5 other regions. Too hard to defend I think. While other places not enough connection maybe. Bottlenecks favor the southeast. You've balanced it very well with the region bonuses. But whoever gets the southeast first wins the game (to my inexperienced eyes at least). Put stacks at Timor and Sarang, while other players have 4 or 5 places to try and defend. Yes you can hold the entire West of the map with just three bottlenecks. But while people are duking it out for control over there, whoever's down in Australia's probably going to be running the map. Like I said, you've compensated well for it with the bonuses, but I don't know if it's enough. Switch the Yogyakarta/Banjar line to Surabaya and add another connection from Kimberly also to Surabaya maybe. I really like it, and I like the area. But it just seems messy. I don't know. Just throwing things out as I see them.

Yes 56 it's the best number of territories for its divisibility. But I also like 52 because I like 10 and 13 starting territories more than 11 and 14 (those are the cases of 4 or 5 players). But as a matter of fact 54 also allow 10 and 13 starting territories for 5 and 4 players, plus with a perfect divisibility in case of 6 (or even 9). Since I have to admit 54 can be a better number than 52. But another extreme possibility for 52 territories maps is to set 3x17 games (I mean 3p with 17t) but okay that's really rare. Reducing the number of neutrals is something that I really care about when I set a game, since I will use 52t maps for 4-5p games (or even the extreme case of 3p), then I use 54t maps for 6-9p games and 56t for 7-8p. [size=10]You see, Psymon? 52 wins with 2.5 cases against 2 :P[/size] They are just 3 good numbers! Since we already have 2 good maps of 52t and 2 good maps of 54t, maybe this one can be 56? Psymon's suggestions seem to be in this direction. [b]@Hoodlum - Please skip our numeric dissertations[/b] and put your concentration on the map itself. You already received a lot of inputs. But don't be worried about that, lot of inputs means that we like your map and we are interested on it. Also we all know that modifications require time, since take your time to make a good job! ;)

thanks for the input Bishop/Naathim/Psymon/Aero, I know it's going to be a task to meet all these suggestions collectively. It was always going to be a puzzle with this geography, and trying to keep it real as well as make it suitable for game play so it's good to get all this information. I'm still playing around with the colors, and am not sure the best way to do it where i can make it editable and easier (doing it the long way) but at least i got the time play around with it. It's a bit of a revelation from Bishop, of where Maluku islands extend too so that i can put timor leste in a region and probably forget about the special gameplay feature, although i liked it, and even nathims suggestions but it may be too much confusion with an already confusing geography. maybe something to look at later down this development if it still has interest. basics first. aero's mentioned concerns before about the south east asia part of malaysia and kalimantan malaysia..I'm aware of this and would prefer to keep it real, but it seems a bit tricky for gameplay, so I opted to keep the regions to define-able parts of the map and also the connections. I'm glad there isn't any mention on border lines, what a suprise lol, but maybe it just wasn't mentioned. I'll take up Psymons offer for him to do the text once i've sorted out where these added 4 connections are, by the looks of it, not much more border drawing, except for in australia to compensate. I drew the grid on the map because I was fascinated by the equator line it sits on, i didn't want it to be too distracting tho as I thought it might be, so I can just delete it anyways. I'll change the spelling to Maluku (it's been spelt differently in other maps but Maluku more often) and put a dash between timor leste. I'll play around with the shoreline effect some more and see what I come up with. 56 territories I suppose, new connections and change of region values...

I was thinking something like [url=http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q700/Photo_Bishop/SEAsia_zpsca435f5d.png]this.[/url] With the green region called Malakau as it is, and the light-purple region called Southern Malakau. This is not exactly corresponding to the real provinces but enough similar to them. Names I think should stay all in local language(s) or all in English. It's Psymon department though. I don't think the equator is too distracting but I think you can write it with a smaller font. I suggest to write "Equator" small and capital, instead sea names can stay bigger and cursive. "Pacific Ocean" rather then "South Pacific Ocean" would sound better to me.

Ahh that's an option i can play around with bishop. this is what i came up with before I read your last post, but I managed to quickly add and adjust the ocean text as you suggest. no more neutrals lands, little islands are coloured according to the map you posted Edits. [spoiler=edits 56 territories][img]http://www.dicepatch.com/southeastasia11012015.png[/img][/spoiler] I thought it might of needed a frame which I was hesitant to start which meant editing/resizing the map a little to keep it overall as 1024 pixels wide, I thought it looked good but now think that it may be too big as it is bigger than any other frame of a d12 map. I changed the region colors to separate likeness confusion with adjacent regions. I did try to cater for the real malaysia territories in SE.Asia and Kalimantan[spoiler=malaysia edit][img]http://www.dicepatch.com/malaysiastyle.png[/img][/spoiler] but i couldnt see and don't think there is a simple solution with connections, region values or special play, so I just reverted back. expanded Maluku region I added the 4 more territories suggested, making a 4 territory addition to to the once smallest region Maluku (Timor-Leste inclusion). Got rid of the special gameplay bonus. rebordered Australia region, with the addition Arnhem. I changed the text. Psymon, I'm not sure what this style the map is so not sure what style of text goes with it. changed it to this and to a whiter color -black outline. spell change for Maluku and a dash for Timor-Leste. I gave it a crack with shore line outline/noise not sure if this is what you meant aero. Title (for now) South East Asia. originally I went with S.E. Asia / Indonesia. aeronautic suggested just S.E.Asia, Bishop however didn't prefer the shortened title, so therefore the compromise of a lengthened South East Asia. Any suggestions for map name or is this ok?

Maluku bonus: 7/3 + 4/2.5 = 3.93 Mathematically it should round up to +4 bonus. Although this does make a very powerful super-region of Papua + Maluku (+ N. Australia), where you would only have to defend 2 territories for a +8 bonus. The other +4 regions are hard to make into super-regions... on the other hand, I think Maluku would be harder to hold than Sumatra, but it gets a lower bonus. I think we should wait for other opinions on this. N.Australia now has a bonus mathematically equal to Sulawesi, and ought to be +2. (This makes the aforementioned super-region even more powerful.) I think the noise-border you created looks ok in places, but not the best in others, such as near Jakarta. I used a small drop shadow for the shadow around the land for my map, but I'm sure there are many ways to do it. To be honest I think the name is fine as it is. I think the border looks nice, but I'm not sure it's necessary.

This is where a connection from Luzon-Sorong comes handy... Remember? If you don't want this one, we would have to add a long one from Kimberley to Bali or something similar. By the way, what happened to the Vietnam-Kuantan connection? Was it scrapped? I would also add a Aru-Merauke connection too to reduce a bit the linearity. Maybe shorten the Banjarmassin-Yogyakarta by putting it straight through the shortest possible path. For the name I think we could use [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indies]East Indies[/url] but if we don't, we should use [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia]Southeast Asia[/url]... why the two words? They are both valid, I guess, so don't mind me... The region of Laos, Kampuchea, Vietnam, Thailand and Myanmar could be labeled Indochina. Graphically, colors are easier on the eyes. And the font looks better. Do the small islands have any texture? I think at least Bangka and Belitung don't. Also, maybe the minimap would need a frame... the cuts on Australia and Myanmar are weird and look bad and move a bit the circles over the small islands of Aru, Sula and Tanimbar (I'd even say Buru) to make sure that we can see they belong to the yellow region.

I agree with everything that Psymon has mentioned. Despite all of the points that have been raised, this is looking really good! I think I would play on this map a lot.

I think I would play on it a lot too. Ok. I've overwritten the recent image in the spoiler link above with the easier editable updates (to get them out of the way) of the above mentioned by psymon. I'm yet to deal with the indochina and australia off cuts, i just think i aligned it a bit off within the frame so I'll have to figure out a way to solve it without hacking away at it. I may go around and erase some bits of where the shoreline effect doesn't work, and wait for aeros feedback, and also consider a frame for the inset. I am not sure of what happened to the vietnam kuantan connection, maybe i just forgot to re-add it with the many edits. You are right about some of the small islands not having texture, i didn't think it would go noticed or would even have enough space for it to be texturable but there were some not so small that showed on the fix up, cant hide from psymon!! lol I left the values for now, since my miscalculation may balance out what V98 says about super region play.

I don't want to bombard with graphics at this stage, as you are still debating game-play & geography and connections to suit. I think the font is a vast improvement. The region colour changes are a vast improvement, there is no longer any confusion. I prefer the map name written in full as you have it "Southeast Asia". The deletion of the special bonus is good, it clears up space and makes the map look better without clutter. I don't like the wooden frame effect around the map, wall mounted maps only, have wooden frames. Remember, this is a representation of a table board game. [spoiler=aesthetic tips]All modern maps are drawn as if from directly above with 2D images, but older maps and some symbols on modern maps are drawn and incorporated at an approximate 30 degree viewing angle which is basically the angle we see a map on a table. Therefore, it fools your brain into believing that the map is 3D to a certain level, because we are seeing the plan view map at a real 30 degrees when laid on a table and some of the illustrations and incorporated terrain etc are also drawn as if viewed from 30 degrees so the brain believes it is seeing everything at 30 degrees and therefore is looking partly at a side & front view as well as the plan view (3D). Modern technology actually allows us to go further with the more realistic 3D shadow effect, but when it comes to maps, this looks Cheesy! The maps of the United Kingdom that were drawn for Henry VIII mostly had a 3D land edge, but it meant that all the shorelines looked like they were shear cliffs to the sea. This map for instance has no drawings or additional illustrations and therefore the only thing that can be set at 30 degrees viewing angle is the texture of the land, which is what makes most maps come alive.[/spoiler] The little map you made to show some possible changes such as the both regions of Malaysia... in order to incorporate the real Malaysia as a region, there would of course have to be connections from east to west areas and I think this would spoil the map with its already too many connection lines. Therefore, stay with the version of east Malaysia being Sarawak and being part of the Kalimantan region that you had before. The land to sea effect is not what I was talking about, but we will deal with that at a much later date. I won't get involved in connections and game-play as The_Bishop is the main man for this and also Spy Moon & V98 are remarking and suggesting and Spy is the main man for geographic accuracy.

Looking better and better! Was the border on the last version? I like it! Picking colors is the worst. Good luck! I think Australia might be a bit too bright, but I can't tell if you have texture on there or not. Keep up the awesome work!