Iberian Peninsula

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-NoXoN- wrote:
@Bishop, please let me know where i cheat with mountains, maybe i did something wrong.

I tried to help but... you read what he said?
At the moment in your version more than half of the regions have either 4 or more borders or every territory in a region as a border.
Which is not true.
He said this after i told him that what he call problem in southern region in Portugal is much bigger in other maps. I told him i can fix it but clearly he ignore everything.

Well now i see that you dont even check what Psymon says. End of story, none but me is serious about this map.
PsymonStark wrote:
How is it false? I don't have access to the file from the phone but I'll try to remember.

Andalucía has 6 borders
Aragón has 3/3 borders
Castilla León has surely above 3 borders.
Castilla la Mancha has 4 borders.
C. Valenciana has 4/4 borders.
Centro Portugal has 4 borders.
Alentejo has 5/5 borders.

which is more than half of the regions in the map (being the rest Norte (2/2), Extremadura (2/2), Galicia, Cantábrico, Cataluña and Baleares). To be strict, both Norte and Extremadura also would accomplish the condition but I'm not counting them because they are ones.

Other maps have a similar region but in general is the biggest region to find place to defend. With Andalucía, CyL and CLM, we don't need any other difficult region to give weak players a space.

I believe that you Noxon are taking my (and everyone's) feedback too personally. I am not attacking either you or your work. I just try to be as constructive as I can.
Living proof that everyone can be a brilliant great good decent cartographer.
PsymonStark wrote:
Ah, and by the way, Bishop, your suggestion #2 is a bit weird because of the mountains between Ourense and Zamora and between La Rioja and Soria which are not very tall nor representative. Plus it makes more sense (to me) a Madrid being part of CyL. I think it makes more sense to divide Spain by rivers (except Cordillera Cantábrica, Sistema Ibérico and Sierra Morena/Sistemas Béticos, the rest of the mountain ranges are quite small and unimportant) even if we have to cheat a bit.
Living proof that everyone can be a brilliant great good decent cartographer.
-NoXoN- wrote:
PsymonStark - Apr 7, 09:53 AM
I believe that you Noxon are taking my (and everyone's) feedback too personally.

Absolutely not. Maybe sometimes i cant find right words to explain.

Well now i understand what you mean about regions. When you said OR then i thought you are talking about another thing. But yeah anyway it dont saounds too bad, keep in mind i told you i can fix that thing in south Portugal, this is not my final version for gameplay.
I like to discuss more for gameplay cause your final version is very different from reality. When i made borders i couldn't find any river that goes through regions as a border. Also your mountains are way too long, i understand that you did it to get better gameplay but this is not accepted if we can make better solution.
aeronautic wrote:
I'd like to discuss the current development of the map.

I see that the credit/s or signature of creative rights for the map is written as "Drawn by WO for Dominating 12".
D12 does not tender game maps and therefore has not requested any other website to create this map.

If you wish to develop the map here at D12 with the assistance of our very capable staff and advisers, we would not be opposed to this, nor would we be opposed to the map being used on your website, so long as;
1) The map is a joint effort and the suggestions and feedback from our staff and advisers is considered in the way it is intended... to make the map the best it can be.
2) That the wording for the creative rights be changed to "A joint War Order/Dominating 12 production" or words to that effect.

I also wish for you to know that the current D12 cartographer staff have been put together to work as a team on all game maps and as such, the graphics guy is mostly the "hands on" guy, but is guided by our analysts & advisers and the end result is normally a very good looking map with very good game-play.

(edit): Could you please enclose all demo map images in spoilers, so that they don't expand the page? I have written a step by step tutorial for how to do this. http://www.dominating12.com/forum/?cmd=topic&id=1995&page=2#post-29849
Hyd yn oed er fy mod Cymraeg , dim ond yn siarad Saesneg, felly yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y cyfieithu yn gywir.
naathim wrote:
NoXoN has been extremely helpful the last week or so, put in a lot of time. And we've been working on the gameplay. I honestly think we've come up with a pretty good solution with some compromises so that everybody gets a little of what they want, while gameplay is still pretty great. There's still one or two issues/details that will need to be decided, by the forum at large.

The primary issue I'm concerned about is number of territories. It's down to 59. Will that work? I'm terrible with neutrals, even looking at the chart. I'm thinking that for four person it might be bad...

He'll be posting an updated map today or tomorrow (depending on your time zones lol).

Anywho, I hope you guys'll like what's been hashed out!
The_Bishop wrote:
You added more fictional mountains from the previous version.

As a gameplay and colours I liked this one:
Spoiler (click to show)
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein
naathim wrote:
None of the mountain chains are fictitious. They're just selectively chosen to help gameplay, like on any map, so that criticism I think is caput: http://maps.maphill.com/spain/maps/physical-map/darken/darken-physical-map-of-spain.jpg

The only ones that are stretched out a bit are the Beticas in the south. They don't quite stretch all the way to Cordoba. They're more foothills by the time they get there.

I liked that version too Bishop, I was pretty proud of the coloring ^^ even though I think it's a little too bright... And me and Psymon did work on the gameplay quite a bit, with some of your suggestions I think making it very good.

But nobody stepped up to do the mountains, which I said I couldn't do so.... I gave Psymon the file a little while ago (a month MAYBE? Maybe less, so not long time), because I was sitting and doing nothing with it, but he's been busy with other maps and ideas.

And Psymon has said he doesn't like this version because the number of territories isn't good for gameplay.

NoXon came along and has been very helpful in trying to get the graphics finished and help adapt gameplay to be better. They may be different, but I've appreciated all the work and effort he's put in, in trying to get it finished.

It's a mess is what it is :P

No good clear way of going forward.
The_Bishop wrote:
I meant the mountains going around Burgos are a bit fictional (3rd time I said it really), even if some mountains is there they are lesser than others and the mountain range of Cordillera Cantabrica dosen't seem to have that shape. Same for the mountains on the west of Tarragona in the last Noxon's version. La Rioja has significant mountains on the south but we missed them. The river I proposed was cheated to be adapted to region borders that is not so good, is better to cheat the territories than the physical elements (rivers mountains).

Psymon said what the 4 main mountain ranges are: Cordillera Cantabrica, Sistema Central, Sistema Iberico and Sistemas Beticos. But really only the first form a clear mountain range, the others are "systems" and it's a bit debatable to define exactly where the "water divider" is. Since they can be adjusted in different ways and they even look different from one map to one other.

If I have to make the most possible realistic I think at something like this:
Spoiler (click to show)
But then it looks confusing and I think it's better to simplify a bit those impassable like this for example:
Spoiler (click to show)
I wouldn't make the eastern regions more defensible than that because they already are the juiciest area of the map (defensible super-region).

I like how Psymon/Naathim adjusted the territories in Portugal and I noticed they are named after the districts, Not the regions, that's why the southern one is called Faro and not Algarve.

Really I think we were okay with defining the territories, and now we only need to define the impassables. But Noxon really changed many things without giving a real explanation, (including the map title and map size). Not that is right or wrong but they should be discussed.

I think for gameplay finalization we should go on from where we were before Noxon's reform, but still he has the right to suggest changes if he feels but possibly giving reasons for those changes.

@Naathim (personal) (click to show)
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein
naathim wrote:
Okay, we try going forward! TOOT TOOT!

I honestly think the Tagus river through the middle is the best way to divide, if you need division. The problem is, which NoXoN addressed a little, was CLM being a 5 territory/5 border region, which really isn't good. I also liked that it brought the mountains around Madrid in.

Even his though only got it down to 6 territories/4 borders, which isn't that great either.

So here's another proposal. Thanks for the helpful map Bishop! This looks hideous cause I'm just throwing stuff on there.

Throw out the river entire. I never thought it did much anyhow. Just mountain ranges, which somebody will still have to put on there, it is entirely beyond my ability!!!

Spoiler (click to show)

This follows the mountains much more closely. I think it opens up the play in the NE some more. Restores Segovia's and Grenada's borders to how they should be, but covers them up with mountains. Makes CLM slightly more defensible. Makes Cantabrico a better region overall. Flattened out the mountains around Burgos a little.

It does make the SW look a little empty by comparison. And I agree with Psymon that Madrid does kind of seem like it should be more in CyL.

It's fairly similar to something you already had posted Bishop. And to be honest I think it's the best solution so far.



The_Bishop wrote:
It looks even better than mine example really. I feel like you get the target Naathim. The river was nice but it is not useful anymore in its actual place and then Ebro river is missing since it's better to not have any: mountains only.

I don't know why you all say Madrid should be part of CyL, because looking at the physical map it seems more like part of CLM.

For who don't know: (click to show)
Mountains in Granada could have a geographical representation meaning even if it was not intended to have any game role.
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein
PsymonStark wrote:
I have done a bit of research and a while ago, Madrid belonged to the region of Castilla La Nueva, which was Madrid+CLM-Albacete. I think then that Madrid->CLM.

Spain 1873 (click to show)

Yes, I agree that's one of the best solutions.
Living proof that everyone can be a brilliant great good decent cartographer.
The_Bishop wrote:
Then it looks like we have found an agreement.

So who is in charge to draw the mountains now?
«God doesn't play dice with the World» ~ Albert Einstein