Hawaii Dual

Can't make everyone happy! That's for sure.

I made a couple of tiny improvements. I also went back and read all of the comments since this version of the map was introduced and they are all cosmetic. Some want it darker, some lighter, some like the 3D of each island and others do not. As the "artist" I think I should be allowed a little leeway. I LOVE THIS MAP AS IS!!! I think it looks great and would really love to get this beta tested to see how it plays. Anyway, it is now up to the powers that be to decide. Hope to hear something soon. Here is latest version: [spoiler][IMG]http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e277/Richard_B_Clarke/Hawaii%204.2_zpswhbw1hms.jpg[/IMG][/spoiler]

It's been almost a year since you were developing this map. I don't know why you just stopped. My best guess is that you gathered it should have gone to beta by this stage? However, early in your thread you stated that the first one you submitted took 8 hours and that you felt it was completed. You also stated that you know map makers can take weeks, months or even years to complete a map. What you didn't really know at the time was, especially at D12, the reason why maps take so long is that they have to be developed. For instance, I am a Cartographer and I could just create a map which I know will be absolutely fine in all aspects and make it beta. However, that would be of no use to anyone because firstly I am human and forget some things or make errors, secondly it may not be used by players because it doesn't look or play the way they would expect it to. There above are the reasons why maps take, weeks, months or years to create. The first Post, no matter how complete in the makers eyes, is a draft of what can be developed with the help of the staff and community in the way of feedback, both positive & negative, with negative being the most important to all map makers, because it is forces you to adapt and improve, that is if you can allow yourself to accept all feedback regardless of +/- With that in mind, I see that you have made the changes that people have suggested in your thread. I have read the whole thread and see that there was also quite a lot of negative feedback for the chrome 3d effect. I know it is difficult when there are conflicting views on something, but when faced with something that is loved & hated down the middle, there is usually an alternative that is loved by most and neither loved or hated by the rest. Having read your threads and talked to you personally, I believe a lot of reluctance to change some of the things is due to the limitations and options of the graphics packages you have access to. I have sent you a link for Photoshop and believe that if you learn some of the tools and read the tutorials here, you will have 1000 times more opportunity to show your skills with better tools, as I truly believe the limitations of your available tools are holding you back. Always ask one of us graphics guys if there is anything you need help with how to use or find in Photoshop. [spoiler=Chrome 3d Effect]The chrome 3D effect: This type of 3D drop shadow effect (not chrome) was something that was used a lot on 16th century maps and added some sort of transition to the sea. However, they insinuate that all the coastline has shear cliffs to the sea. All modern maps use a subtler transition to the sea, from outwardly dark to light shade lines to dark gradient outer glows. You don't have to have any transition to the sea, but then there should be a light but still contrasting outline so as not to have too much severe contrast around all the land (See East Indies). Having no outline and no transition to the sea creates an unwanted paper cut-out effect. We always talk about the millions of combinations of effects, tones & colours and what is aesthetic / cheesy. Unfortunately, Chrome 3d drop shadow effects are in the cheesy class.[/spoiler] Having read about the 3d effect and about transitions, please look at an example I made for ideas of what I am talking about. Everything I have done here is limited due to having a flat image without layers. The problem with the texture you have is it is the same throughout. [spoiler=Example of texture & transition][img]http://www.the-inkstore.co.uk/resources/Hawaii_example.png[/img] I have moved the Channel Mixer around a bit which plays with all your colours. I rubber stamped your chrome edge out and made an outline, not a black one as that would be too harsh. I pasted and scaled a satellite image of the main island onto yours and dropped the opacity. I put another 2D main island behind the satellite image and sprayed it with a rich red colour, but this could be a bit lighter. I put a dark outer glow on the red land at size 10 and an 8 spread and dropped the opacity to 50% This shows one possibility of a more textured island and it looks like it sits above the background, but not a great deal. It also shows a transition to the sea rather than have a sharp edge.[/spoiler] There are still other things I would like to discuss, but at another time. In the meantime, understanding the things I am pointing out above, is the means to understanding why map making is so long winded and why D12 has a set of quite strict guidelines that the cartographers have to adhere to.

I actually like the 3D look. If any gameplay issues are corrected, shouldn't the map maker be able to keep something as minor as a 3D effect if that is what they like. Not everyone hates it. Isn't that the advantage of being the maker. I would compare it to being an artist. Spending hours working on your piece. If all of the "real" issues are ironed out, why shouldn't the "Artist" be able to keep the look that appeals to them. If the look the artist was going for was hated by all and against D12 rules and standards (Dante's Inferno) I can understand the inability of ever bringing that map to life. However, with something as insignificant as the 3D edges on some islands, why not leave that up to the artist for the final say.

I just went back and looked closely at all the comments SINCE the 3D effect was added. CBT711 & Marcoxa were the only two who specifically mentioned not liking the 3D. But Drac, Tram, Spam, and Clarkette all gave the map a thumbs up. So it seems that D12 folks like it by a 2 to 1 margin. All that being said, the truth is I also like what you (aero) did with that one big island in your previous post. I think that looks great also. So I guess the question is this: Is the 3D effect alone as it currently appears, so drastically outside of D12 standards that the map will never be allowed to move forward if it is not changed? I certainly hope that is not the case. I personally (the artist) love how the map looks right now. I know there are not other maps on D12 right now with a 3D effect like that. But I think having maps that have some unique and different styles, as long as they are up to D12 standard for quality, should be encouraged.

I am sorry Clarke but I don't like it either. I think the map is quite good, but the drop shadow makes it look like individual pieces of a construction game. There is something on the title contrast and darkness that I think you could improve too but the map itself is pretty nice. Another question that I don't know if has been asked before. Why region names aren't on the minimap?

Not all maps have names on the mini-map for the regions (Africa, Brazil, and Balkan Pen. for examples). As long as the players know how many points the region bonus is worth, then the mini-map did its job. In fact, I just counted... Of the 39 maps that are shown on the MAPS link in the top left corner, 24 either have NO mini-map OR no labels for the regions on the mini-map. So not sure why you felt the need to mention this... But that is my answer. I am sorry you don't like the 3D effect Psymon. I guess that makes it 4 positive and 3 negative responses...

It's preferred when they fit, if they don't it doesn't matter, but it's harder to trace the log. I think you could make the minimap bigger either way.

Clarke i think it will work good. It is a cool twist to carib double.

I think I can make the mini-map bigger also and there is plenty of room to add the names Psymon, so I will do both of those things and report soon. Thanks for the feedback.

I will also lighten up the dark brown around the title

Personally the fact that CBT, Aero and Psymon agree on something will probably mean they are right - they are good in what they do. I'm not saying 3D is bad (quite the contrary, I love it for mountains or bridges for example), I think it's just that if something is 3D, it should rest on some base - with this map it looks like there are islands floating in the air.

I think the map looks very interresting, and the 3D effect could be cool to see in a real game...:) anyways i think it's good to go imo;) gl

When given a lot of mixed feedback from the members it is always best to follow the cartographers and what they have to say since there's a reason why we have them. We try our best to help members with their maps by giving the most befitting feedback and working side by side with the creator in order to create a map good enough to be on the site. This too is time consuming for us but we do it anyway because we know how much it means to the creator. I don't remember much from the thread but I know I did not like the 3D effect. The reason for this is that it's hard creating one without making the map look cheesy, even those with years of experience can find it difficult making it look ok. [quote=Clarke @ Post #65 ]But I think having maps that have some unique and different styles, as long as they are up to D12 standard for quality, should be encouraged.[/quote] This is true on some level but you still need to make it coherent with the rest of the maps that we have. Which means maps that look good but don't fit the D12 style will unfortunately not go live. [spoiler=DXII Guide to Map Making][quote=DXII Guide to Map Making]Aside from quality, style must also be considered. The map has to fit with the rest of the maps on the site and also fit the design of the site itself. Extremely light maps don't work because the site's style is fairly dark. Ugly maps, no matter how high quality, do not fit.[/quote][/spoiler]

Fendi is absolutely right. There is a reason that no other map on D12 have that type of 3D effect. I think the map is too cartoon or basic to be on dominating 12. The 3D effect for me is not the greatest. It makes it feel like there are no beaches on the island, it's just a raise cliff from the sea.