Is helping cheating or teaching?

I was recently in a game where it was down to 2 or 3 people. Some other guys who were not even part of the original game were telling a lower ranked player how to play their turn in order to maximize positioning and minimize my troop count. Basically strategizing or suggesting strategy.

I asked Vexer and he told me to post a topic. I'm curious to hear how other moderate to great players would feel about Vexer or another top player coming into a live game and telling your opponent how to either finish you off or best protect themselves in the game's most critical moment, at the beginning of their turn, in a live game.

Seems unfair to me but I haven't been around this year and I'd like to hear others' thoughts.

Post a link to the game.

http://www.dominating12.com/?cmd=game&sec=play&id=213675

Not sure the point you are trying to make here, but there is nothing wrong with experienced players helping out inexperienced players as long as there is no cheating. By cheating, I mean this:

http://www.dominating12.com/?cmd=tutorial&act=rules

I have been asked many times to help on games and what I think they should do in their turn and I have watched some players I have trained and put input in their games...I normally say what I would have done differently after their turn cause I am not in the game. To give tips after a tuen is they way to do it so they other players are not playing me and the player learns and the other players do not get up-set with what I said.

I learned this the hard way...I was telling the player what to do at their turn and stopped when a another player said "Hey Papa we are not playing you" I stopped right then and there...I asked if they would have a problem if I told "My guy" what I would have done...I have had no complaints after I did this. 

I feel this is the only real way to teach during a game, most of my training has been using a long term game...so we can take our time...then I watch them in live games and tell them what I would have done.

I would write a message to the players envoled and suggest this option.

Well, Thorpe, what about manipulating a player in a game? This is done all the time. Telling another player what moves to make because it is in their 'best interest.' It is considered an acceptable tactic. To me, manipulating a player has less appeal than helping one but it seams like helping is not considered acceptable while trickery is?

Cause you are in the game and the players wanted you there...or maybe they got stuck with you, while the other way is that you never joined, sort of teaming in a way.

It shouldn't matter. Unless the game is password protected, it could have been joined by a novice just as easily an an advanced player. If the advice is to the benefit of the new player learning, I don't see a problem. If, however, the advice is not really to the benefit of the new player and is strictly aimed at causing another specific player's demise and ruins the game, I would consider that harassment and not help.

If you are saying that playing weak new players without any help should be allowed because they have to play with their own skills and not someone else's guidance, that is like saying training should not be allowed either because it would be unfair if a person of low rank and experience recieved training from you without acheiving the experience on their own and went into a game with the unfair advantage of knowledge passed on from a better player before they had earned it.

I prefer giving tips on how he should have moved after the move, so that I don't interfere with the current game, but the player still learns how to play better.

But I won't say this is right and that is wrong.

Fair enough. I do believe that if this is the proper way to train/coach, a notation should be added to the site rules in order to inform and discourage this type of interferance.

In my experiences, most "help" is actually "unsolicited advice" in the Risk games. Typically, good players receive some sort of internal reward for watching other people's games and telling them what they "should" do or "should have" done. 

I find this habit very annoying. It has been going on for a very long time, and I don't imagine it going away unless we put serious social pressure on people who give unsolicited advice when they give it. Vexer gave some good advice by recommending a thread, but he just recently came into my long term game and told us how we should be playing it differently. Actually, several people have come into this game and commented. It is odd to me. Do people just shop around the long term games and try to find a moment to interject?

My general rules are: (a) If I want to legitimately give advice, I will ask the person if she is interested; and (b) I will give advice to people I am playing against (when I am still alive) in order to move the game forward or to ensure that someone doesn't end the game prematurely with a bad move. 

Elysium- Just because something isn't in the site rules means absolutely nothing to me, the rules on this site have changed before and continue to change.

It's annoying enough when people in the game that are eliminated do it, I'm talking about people that just come into the game, high ranking people, top 12 people, and start mapping out a course of attack.

Give me a break! Anyone that says that is fine is wrong. I will say it. Wrong! If I'm a beginner and I'm playing with three other beginners and some tool that has a high rank who is watching starts telling one person where to move, I would be upset. I'm now not playing beginners, I'm playing a high ranking officer.

Paddlin- WYME??

Dracarys and Paddlin give this reason why...when you want to give tips...ask.

I have told staff and members this is a rule. I ask in chat this way:

"I do train players on how to play on "Caps"
"if you want you can message me and I will train you"

Players have to ask me if they want me to go to a game to see how or what they could have done differently...I now...never just jump into a game and start giving tips.

 Why would you? You really think they want you to tell them? You must have a big head...if you think you are that great, make your on "Web Site" and call it "Know-it-all".*

*This statement is for everybody and not just one member.

What you are describing Dracarys, I agree is not fair play and that's not the type of help I was trying to justify.

I was thinking along the lines of... 'before you make your next move you may want to look at who is stronger, who has a possible card turn in, who can wipe you out, protect your capitol, protect your borders, etc...'

And I was also referring to brand new players when I used the terms 'inexperienced' and 'novice' in my other posts. Someone who just joined and has not played before or only played a couple of games and is clearly not understanding how to play.

If I came across a brand new player in a game while I was browsing and saw they were totally lost I would offer the advice I mentioned above and then do exactly what was mentioned above by Thorpe; offer extra help if they request it but not in a way that directly affects the game they are playing. Something more along the lines of corresponding about strategies like in the forums or setting up specific games to train.

I did not mean how to specifically play each turn. I agree, that is not in the spirit of the game.

I apologise if I did not explain myself clearly and if you go back and read my other posts hopefully you will see that my intention was to justify a little help to a brand new player and not the type of 'coaching' to which you were referring. That type of 'help' is not helpful and seems a little to much like trolling.

I can see how its not fair and I totally empathise with how you feel @dracarys but personally I like a challenge and would get immense satisfaction from winning this match. You have a great rank so obviously you are really good at this game and possibly could look at it as an extra challenge